Vegan Forum

A question frequently posed by vegetarians is: how can you justify killing an innocent animal for food? This question may seem difficult to answer at first but really it is not.

Would it be reasonable to ask a lion to justify his killing of an innocent gazelle? Of course not: it is natural for the lion to kill the gazelle and that is justification enough. And what of a gazelle's right not to be eaten? Put this way, you can see that such questions are really meaningless. The same is true for us, for we are not a vegetarian species.

FatalError wrote:A question frequently posed by vegetarians is: how can you justify killing an innocent animal for food? This question may seem difficult to answer at first but really it is not.

Would it be reasonable to ask a lion to justify his killing of an innocent gazelle? Of course not: it is natural for the lion to kill the gazelle and that is justification enough. And what of a gazelle's right not to be eaten? Put this way, you can see that such questions are really meaningless. The same is true for us, for we are not a vegetarian species.

You can't take examples from animal, otherwise rape, theft and murder can be justified. (Those monkeys steal from each other, why can't we do the same?)

as well..

If we had large sharp teeth and claws, and could run 50 miles an hour, sure I'd eat meat too. Were at the technology age where we don't actually have to hunt down and capture our foods. We just drive to the store and buy it.

(btw: it has been proven that humans digestive systems are in fact meant to be vegetarian..)

Bative wrote:(btw: it has been proven that humans digestive systems are in fact meant to be vegetarian..)

I've read this many places, but I've yet to see how something like that can be proven... any help?

Actually, human digestive systems are not entirely herbivorous, more like omnivorous, just in case of some drought or other disaster which would make vegetable food hard available (they would then eat carcass until it's all back to normal). But since we live in quite comfortable world now, it's no use in eating anything besides plants. The reasons to do that are many, and on the digestion grouds I can say that the intestines are too long for meat and it begins to rot in the mid-way, which, as you can imagine, is a bit unhealthy. Also, human has not meat-digesting enzymes and proper bacterias are not originally settled inside (that's why a baby cannot eat meat or he/she will be poisoned to death), they're introduced into the body by means of eating some weird Gerber pulps etc. Well... I'm too lazy to write more, but all I can say is that human is definitely herbivorous, but is also flexible to eat other things. Even if they make him live twice shorter and in worse conditions.
I wish you all good health.

FatalError wrote:A question frequently posed by vegetarians is: how can you justify killing an innocent animal for food? This question may seem difficult to answer at first but really it is not.

Would it be reasonable to ask a lion to justify his killing of an innocent gazelle? Of course not: it is natural for the lion to kill the gazelle and that is justification enough. And what of a gazelle's right not to be eaten? Put this way, you can see that such questions are really meaningless. The same is true for us, for we are not a vegetarian species.

Hi, A lion or any wild animal is placed in a state of instinct...without much in the way of choices..we on the other hand have free will...to consider and choose. All are somwhat 'prisoners' of the diet we inherit from parents or caregivers until we reach a time to make choices, I am astonished when I read posts of teens who have already made a vegan choice. It was not until college for me. Best of fortune, ak

notalice wrote:

Bative wrote:(btw: it has been proven that humans digestive systems are in fact meant to be vegetarian..)

I've read this many places, but I've yet to see how something like that can be proven... any help?

Hi, I have heard that some believe that our bodies have a reduced waist compared to older species due to the new diet of meat eating..but I feel that is wrong. The appendix is suspected to be a vestigal organ to help digest plants..meat eating only serves to instill the desire to kill and other callous pursuits. A diet of vegetables must have been a complex and difficult one to gather for persons without a market full of options, and supplements we enjoy today. But the selection of such a diet, under those conditions, is profoundly admirable... to me. Best of fortune, ak

FatalError wrote:A question frequently posed by vegetarians is: how can you justify killing an innocent animal for food? This question may seem difficult to answer at first but really it is not.

Would it be reasonable to ask a lion to justify his killing of an innocent gazelle? Of course not: it is natural for the lion to kill the gazelle and that is justification enough. And what of a gazelle's right not to be eaten? Put this way, you can see that such questions are really meaningless. The same is true for us, for we are not a vegetarian species.

Hi Fatal, 'Wild ' animals are directed, cheifly by instinct, not to be confused by free will that we enjoy, we must choose our mode of survival. Best of fortune, adam

I have been here for like 5 minutes and can already see that fatal error just likes to start crap.

loveatomato wrote:I have been here for like 5 minutes and can already see that fatal error just likes to start crap.

Hi lovetomato, Yor time has been well spent, but it is a reasonable question as to why animals, depending upon instict to guide their way, and man with free will, to determine his (or her's) makeup of meals... a complicated world no doubt. ak

Ive got some intresting reading on what humans are "made" to eat.
Unfortunally they are on swedish.
Lucy ower ancester, how lives for 3´000´000 to 3´900´000 years ago, lived on mostly vegetabils like flowers nuts fruits some fiber but also a great lot of insect like ant beetles worm like bugs, and some small animals. Guess something like rabbits rats doglike creatures, and sometimes bigger animals when found dead.

Those apes that are alike us in food digestion, eats some meat.

and so on. Is clear that we are meat eaters however today we eat more meat than we suppose to. We should eat more vegetabilies, but we shouldnt forget the meat either.

Sergio wrote:You can't take examples from animal, otherwise rape, theft and murder can be justified. (Those monkeys steal from each other, why can't we do the same?)

So everything that is natural for a animal is also evil. Like kissing, love, giving birth, eating ?

loveatomato wrote:I have been here for like 5 minutes and can already see that fatal error just likes to start crap.

And your posting is more creative because ?

loveatomato wrote:I have been here for like 5 minutes and can already see that fatal error just likes to start crap.

Actually those questions should be answered because we meet them often and we should know right answers, not only feel that we are right, it's why I left those questions and haven't delete them.

Bybo wrote:Ive got some intresting reading on what humans are "made" to eat.
Unfortunally they are on swedish.
Lucy ower ancester, how lives for 3´000´000 to 3´900´000 years ago, lived on mostly vegetabils like flowers nuts fruits some fiber but also a great lot of insect like ant beetles worm like bugs, and some small animals. Guess something like rabbits rats doglike creatures, and sometimes bigger animals when found dead.

Those apes that are alike us in food digestion, eats some meat.
and so on. Is clear that we are meat eaters however today we eat more meat than we suppose to. We should eat more vegetabilies, but we shouldnt forget the meat either.

Yes, we shouldn't forget it, there are a lot of soy analogues

Sergio wrote:You can't take examples from animal, otherwise rape, theft and murder can be justified. (Those monkeys steal from each other, why can't we do the same?)

So everything that is natural for a animal is also evil. Like kissing, love, giving birth, eating ?

Why would you say so?

I dont know what you mean with soy analogues. Please inform me with a private message. Thank you.

I said so because Sergio mentioned some bad things that animals do. To compare it with meat eating. Animals does things that are what we humans consider as good ethics and also bad. Like killing you own offspring, eating manure etc. But also animals do good things.
However a omnivor should eat some meat, and the only thing the lion needs to justifie its behavior is that the lion should eat. Thats justification enough for the lion.

Bybo wrote:I dont know what you mean with soy analogues. Please inform me with a private message. Thank you.

We have some good textured vegetable protein here, which even some meat eaters prefer when we prepare it for barbeque.

I said so because Sergio mentioned some bad things that animals do. To compare it with meat eating. Animals does things that are what we humans consider as good ethics and also bad. Like killing you own offspring, eating manure etc. But also animals do good things.
However a omnivor should eat some meat, and the only thing the lion needs to justifie its behavior is that the lion should eat. Thats justification enough for the lion.

Lion doesn't justify anything when he wants to eat - he hunts and eat. People when hungry can do the following things:
Work and buy vegan food
Kill an animal and eat it
Steal some food
Kill some person and take his food (or his money and buy food)
You can see that he has some options which already are unethical, vegans just rise ethical standard higher.

So its just some vegan food that tastes good ?
So what, i like alot of vegan food that is very good to eat. However that is not what we were talking about.

People when hungry can do the following things:
Work and buy vegan food
Kill an animal and eat it
Steal some food
Kill some person and take his food (or his money and buy food)
You can see that he has some options which already are unethical, vegans just rise ethical standard higher.

This is a very narrow way to put things.

Bybo wrote:

People when hungry can do the following things:
Work and buy vegan food
Kill an animal and eat it
Steal some food
Kill some person and take his food (or his money and buy food)
You can see that he has some options which already are unethical, vegans just rise ethical standard higher.

This is a very narrow way to put things.

I think it's very logical.

No its narrow.
Were is the alternative work and buy food why just vegan food ?
Your options are narrow and filled with YOUR opinion.
I´d like to talk ethics but with a starting like that.. No thank you.

Bybo wrote:No its narrow.
Were is the alternative work and buy food why just vegan food ?

Because when you work and buy meat you're supporting killing of animals, it's equivalent with killing of those animals.

Your options are narrow and filled with YOUR opinion.
I´d like to talk ethics but with a starting like that.. No thank you.

I understand that you don't have other arguments on ethics.

I got plenty to say about ethics but not with a starter like that.
I will reply to other threads, and id like to discuss ethics.
But i will not waste my time in this thread.
Please reply to the other many thread under questions and answers wich is unreplied by vegans. Do you lack argumentation there just because you dont answer ?

Bybo wrote:I got plenty to say about ethics but not with a starter like that.
I will reply to other threads, and id like to discuss ethics.
But i will not waste my time in this thread.
Please reply to the other many thread under questions and answers wich is unreplied by vegans. Do you lack argumentation there just because you dont answer ?

Actually I consider ethical reason most important of all, It's like you will not stop Holocaust because of ecological reasons, it must been stopped for ethical reasons, so people will not suffer. I use same consideration with animals.

Bybo wrote:

People when hungry can do the following things:
Work and buy vegan food
Kill an animal and eat it
Steal some food
Kill some person and take his food (or his money and buy food)
You can see that he has some options which already are unethical, vegans just rise ethical standard higher.

This is a very narrow way to put things.

You are right, what Sergio wrote isn't a list of all possibilities.
But it wasn't his goal to list all of them. He just wanted to point out that we people have more choices, a part of which are unethical from the start if measured by usual standards. Like killing a guy and taking his money to buy food.
This was just an example to show a concept..

Now regarding the topic there is a very subtle difference between humans eating meat and carnivores eating meat.
And the difference is in how we get the meat and how we eat it.

When a wild animal hunts it creates harmony in nature. It's like a game and everybody has it's role in it. It makes the game more interesting, by being balanced. The "pray" if it's strong enough has a very good chance of escaping. While a farm animal is not given even a small chance, it is not given even the chance to develop necessary skills to survive alone..

Now you will say... what about hunting animals.. is it ethical? Hm.. lets think, how would you feel if a guy with a sniper gun would start killing everybody in your district for his own motives? Can you imagine? A usual morning.. You are taking your son to school, thinking how quickly is he growing, which makes you very proud because he is very smart entirely like you and at one moment you hear a quiet flap and you see your only child lying in blood.
Now think well about this and then tell me:
Do you think that hunting the way it happens in present is moral? I'm a bit skeptical..

The conclusion I would like to write:
Is it moral or is it not moral to kill for food is for us to decide. Morality is invented by us and it is for us people. Now when we are the most powerful of the species on earth i.e. we can destroy all life by pushing a couple of buttons we should be more careful with our morality.. in the end what goes around - comes around.

notalice wrote:

Bative wrote:(btw: it has been proven that humans digestive systems are in fact meant to be vegetarian..)

I've read this many places, but I've yet to see how something like that can be proven... any help?

Heres an article which compares the digestive systems of herbivores, carnivores, omnivores and humans.
http://www.vegetarian-society.org/downloads/Anatomy.pdf

Good news

A lot of you vegetarians and vegans need to accept other people and realise that you can care about the environment and animals and not be a vegetarian. I hate it when vegetarians won't quit pushing their ideas on others after they have made up their mind. It's not fair to make people feel bad, people who donate money to causes that help the environment and animals. It's not fair to make them feel like they aren't doing a thing to help and that they are just going around killing anything natural in their path. They are doing what they have made up their mind to do to help. They don't feel the need to switch to vegetarianism and they don't have to. It's really starting to make me feel bad, with you going on and on about how horrible it is to eat meat when I'm really trying my best to help the environment. I should just stop hanging around vegetarians and vegans completely! You aren't helping the environment by pushing your morals on others. You are making people feel bad, and if they believe you when you say they are making the world a worse place by eating meat, they'll give up. That will be one less person doing their part, because you won't shut up and let them make their OWN FREAKING DECISIONS!

And it wasn't made to be vegetarian, it was probably made to survive when there was no meat. A closed-minded vegetarian wrote whatever stupid article you got that from.

You guys are starting to make me predjudiced on all vegheads because you are SO rude to the people who care, but still eat meat! EATING ONLY VEGHEAD FOOD WON'T save the giant panda. It won't stop people from building houses on rainforests. THE CHICKEN AND COW aren't endangered, not even near threatened. People have been eating these animals for years and they are still a thriving species! What does that tell you? We don't need to worry about them dying off or anything! So why complain about them?
Oh, yeah. The "Animal Rights" thing. Riiight....
Like that video that forces people to not eat meat. I haven't watched it. Because I already know its effects.

MomoPeach, why are you feeling bad?
try reading this, here are some good answers to some good questions:
http://ar.vegnews.org/

Cheers!

So if eating Vegan is supposed to be how humans are meant to eat, why do you need artificial vitamins in foods or pills in order to be healthy?

frondescence wrote:So if eating Vegan is supposed to be how humans are meant to eat, why do you need artificial vitamins in foods or pills in order to be healthy?

Who said that you need it?

MomoPeach, I'm getting worried about you. I don't think anyone here is trying to force their beliefs on you: this is a vegan website, you don't have to read it. I kind of resent all these flames about Jesus and how we're supposed to eat meat - it looks to me like it's you imposing your beliefs on us.

You've made several references across different threads to vegans starving themselves, or depriving themselves of "real" food. It's true that many people lose some weight when they first become vegan, because meat and dairy are so high calorie compared to vegetables. But most people adjust to this. In fact, a lot of medical groups are starting to see merit in high fruit and veg intake, hence the "five a day" campaign in the UK.

If "God" wants me to eat meat, does that mean he wants me to have a heart attack or catch bowel cancer too?!

There are stories about vegans starving or developing malnutrition through poor diet. Has something like this happened to you? Some vegans struggle to maintain their weight (some are built like gorillas!). Sites like this help to educate vegans, so that this happens less. I've also heard of annorexics incoporating veganism as part of their condition - but this doesn't mean vegans are annorexic. Sadly, plenty of meat eaters starve themselves to death too.