Vegan Forum

"It has been proven that human digestive systems are meant to be vegetarian"....

I hate how atheists rely on stupid "scientific evidence" and place all their trust in it.

Your stupid "scientifically proven" junk doesn't matter. Humans eat meat. Humans have eaten meat forever and we're not going to stop because someone made up the stupid idea that it is wrong.

MomoPeach wrote:Humans have eaten meat forever

any proofs?

I hate how atheists rely on stupid "scientific evidence" and place all their trust in it.

So you'ld rather believe in a book that was compiled to control society by enforcing heirarchical beliefs and dictating what is acceptable? You are aware that God didn't write the bible? It has been edited and rewritten hundreds of times over, often by people with a vested interest in controlling the population. As shown by the Dead Sea Scrolls and Gospel of St Thomas, edited out of the bible because of the teachings preaching equality for women and gentiles. You are being manipulated.

Your stupid "scientifically proven" junk doesn't matter. Humans eat meat. Humans have eaten meat forever and we're not going to stop because someone made up the stupid idea that it is wrong.

There are plenty of communities around the world (in southern Mexico, northern India and Asia off the top of my head) where meat and dairy are traditionally not, or are rarely, eaten. Vegetarianism is not a new idea. Until the early part of the 20th century most people couldn't afford to eat meat regularly, and many people my parent's generation will make a big deal about "being able to put meat on the table."

And nobody's saying it's 'wrong' - because it's nobody's place to dictate right and wrong - I for one am just promoting a way of life that's healthy, can sustain society in the long term, minimises animal cruelty and maintains the planet. Your implications that vegans are just interested in animal welfare is incredibly mis-informed; of course nobody wants to see a chicken sh*t all over the conveyor belt as it tries to escape the factory, or a calf bleat for its mother as it's taken away in a veal cart, but there are wider issues.

Meat and dairy were heavily promoted during the post-war rationing period as a way of preventing the population from starving. So were a lot of other things, like using powdered breast-milk, and drinking Guiness whilst pregnant! The legacy of this is that meat and dairy are still perceived to be healthy, and there are still government guidelines to promote meat and dairy, especially to poorer families who do not eat well. The tide is now turning, and eating meat and dairy for every meal is fast becoming as socially unacceptable as drinking whilst pregnant.

Whether you like it or not, humans are not designed to eat the volumes of meat and dairy that a modern western diet contains. I have no idea how to reason with someone who doesn't like scientific proof, and I can't help wondering what has happened to you to make you so vehemently anti-vegetarian and determined not to listen to reason!

OK, the above post came off a bit anti-Christian - apologies to anyone who found it offensive My point is that religious teachings - of any religion - are taken with a pinch of salt and it is usually considered bad practise to use them as historic or scientific sources.

Rest assured that my religious friends have waggled their fingers at me!

Your "historical evidence" doesn't matter. The Bible is the Bible.

And God said: "Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree that has seed-yielding fruit--to you it shall be for food." (Gen.1:29)

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, [I have given] every green herb for food. (Gen. 1:30)

Noah was allowed to start eating meat after the Great Flood, as a concession to man's weakness and/or because vegetation had been destroyed:

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; as the green herb have I given you all. (Gen. 9:3)

God has since attempted to encourage man back towards vegetarianism (e.g. the provision of manna to the israelites)

There, it took me a while to find a non-scientific or historical reply! Found the following whilst surfing for Hannukah recipes (the joys of a multi-cultural society...) [http://kosherfood.about.com/od/judaismsdietarylaws/Kosher_for_Jews_Kashrut.htm]

Biblical text implies that vegetarianism is ideal.

The laws of kashrut go on to describe

If, however, one cannot control a craving for meat, it should be kosher meat, which would serve as a reminder that the animal being eaten is a creature of God, that the death of such a creature cannot be taken lightly, that hunting for sport is forbidden, that we cannot treat any living thing callously, and that we are responsible for what happens to other beings (human or animal) even if we did not personally come into contact with them.

While I appreciate modern Christians don't eat kosher, Christianity is derived from Judaism: Jesus was a Jew (King of the Jews, I believe!) after all. And, I remind you, the bible here is the 'Old Testament' of the Christian Bible, to which you refer in your previous post.

I'm sticking some more info on the 'Veggies & Religion' thread There appears to be numerous references in the Bible to God intending man to be vegetarian And numerous clergy and biblical commentors who support vegetarianism.

FatalError wrote:Would it be reasonable to ask a lion to justify his killing of an innocent gazelle? Of course not: it is natural for the lion to kill the gazelle and that is justification enough. And what of a gazelle's right not to be eaten? Put this way, you can see that such questions are really meaningless. The same is true for us, for we are not a vegetarian species.

I find the "animals eat other animals, so it is ok" argument quite tiring. If that is your philosophy, then I am assuming you also support cannibalism? I do not know how many times this will need to be said, but humans are animals. The difference between humans and other animals: we have the ability to differentiate right from wrong. Our intelligence is obviously superior. I also know that there is a very big difference between the teeth of a human and the teeth of a lion. I do not believe that we were meant to chase and devour zebras, nor will I ever believe this.

Would it be reasonable to ask a lion to justify his killing of an innocent gazelle?

It is reasonable if we could only understand the lion's answer...
But I can try to justify the lion myself:
1. The lion can't eat anything else but meat, he would die of hunger.
2. He is hunting the weakest and the less fit gazelle which makes the entire herd stronger and healthier.
3. The process of hunting is a FAIR GAME it spices the life of both gazelles and lions.

Now in the case of humans.
1. We can safely eat something else and it is considered healthier by many Medical Doctors.
2. We are not hunting the weakest, actually human grown animals don't even have the luxury of FREEDOM.
3. There is no fair game, there is no spice, it's a despicable cruelty that goes on in the modern farms.

The difference between humans and other animals: we have the ability to differentiate right from wrong.

Hm.. there are animals that also seem to know the difference. Like some dolphins saving people that drawn. Chimpanzee aunties that adopt their orphaned kin. Etc..
And there are also humans that don't seem to know the difference, and for some reason our society wants to get rid of such people. By putting them to jail or even terminating them.
No animals have ever killed their kin as we humans did, i mean the scale of the process. And in some cases the way.

AndyBa wrote:

The difference between humans and other animals: we have the ability to differentiate right from wrong.

Hm.. there are animals that also seem to know the difference. Like some dolphins saving people that drawn. Chimpanzee aunties that adopt their orphaned kin. Etc..
And there are also humans that don't seem to know the difference, and for some reason our society wants to get rid of such people. By putting them to jail or even terminating them.
No animals have ever killed their kin as we humans did, i mean the scale of the process. And in some cases the way.

Well, yes, I see your point. There are many animals that are very intelligent and make moral choices. Animals also do not hunt for strictly pleasure, that I know of. I just meant that lions are not thinking about moral and immoral when they are ripping a gazelle to shreads, but I cannot imagine a human doing such an act without at least a little bit of guilt, even if that person hides the guilt. I can't say this for sure, obviously, because I have never been in the life of a lion, but I would imagine that they are less developed in their understanding than humans would be. Some humans just don't care, though, even knowing the difference between right and wrong. People are selfish. That is why I have always felt more respect for most animals than humans.

FatalError wrote:A question frequently posed by vegetarians is: how can you justify killing an innocent animal for food? This question may seem difficult to answer at first but really it is not.

Would it be reasonable to ask a lion to justify his killing of an innocent gazelle? Of course not: it is natural for the lion to kill the gazelle and that is justification enough. And what of a gazelle's right not to be eaten? Put this way, you can see that such questions are really meaningless. The same is true for us, for we are not a vegetarian species.

Do you believe that humans are superior to other animals? I suspect that you do, and so do I, although, I am vegan. I believe that we are superior enough not to act like them. Just because other animals do it doesn't mean that we have to. We have superior reasoning and life skills, we should use them. It seems to come back around to the old saying, "If your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?" And that's another human, but you still wouldn't follow because you know that it's unreasonable. The same applies to the vegan lifestyle way of thinking when it comes to animal vs. animal food consumption.

MomoPeach wrote:"It has been proven that human digestive systems are meant to be vegetarian"....

I hate how atheists rely on stupid "scientific evidence" and place all their trust in it.

Your stupid "scientifically proven" junk doesn't matter. Humans eat meat. Humans have eaten meat forever and we're not going to stop because someone made up the stupid idea that it is wrong.

Hi MomoPeach! I'm sorry to see that you are so upset by vegetarians/vegans. I would like to help in anyway that I can, but first I'd like you to take one HUGE step. Please visit the web page that I'm going to post at the end of this. I'm concerned that you are using your Christianity as a weapon, Jesus is a SOFT place to fall. I am Christian and vegan. Please let me guide you to a place that may be able to help you see both sides of this situation, the vegan side, and the Christian side. I will pray that you will be able to choose to be or not to be offended by others. Meat-eaters, vegetarians, or vegans, God loves us all.

http://www.all-creatures.org/cva/

actually, I think that it is o.k. to eat meat ,
BUT!
not too much of course
if everybody were to go vegan,
the food chain would become unbalanced ,
more predators = less prey
so we have to "balance" the food chain by eating meat
but again,
everything in moderation
I am not trying to say that we have to eat meat but more like saying that there is nothing wrong with eating a bit of meat.

Gina wrote:
if everybody were to go vegan,
the food chain would become unbalanced ,
more predators = less prey
so we have to "balance" the food chain by eating meat

I used to believe this also but then I went to live in a farming area, and worked in a food factory

My main objection to eating meat is farming methods: the inhumanity, the lack of regard for health, and the waste (how many people eat tongue or liver or trotters nowadays?) The food chain has become very unbalanced.

A friend of mine has a test for carnivores: you are not allowed to eat meat unless you have killed it yourself! And you have to be pretty darn tough to slaughter a pig