Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

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Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby ChrisVaughn » Oct 15, 2011 7:21 pm

Hello:
I am not a troll. I assure you. I am a vegan. My user name is my real name, and I've been posting my thoughts about various forums hoping to make some radical discourse.

With that being said, I really do believe that our dietary choices do not help animals, and they aren't helping this planet.

Here's the crux of my argument in two parts:

Part 1:

There are a few reasons (which I can source) why vegans aren't making any real change or helping animals:

1) >75% of government subsidies go to meat and dairy. I'm not sure how much you know about subsidies, but they also include quotas, which means whether the demand is there or not, the producers must produce. Wheat farmers burn silos, fruit farmers burn piles, and meat factory farmers discard the meat into landfills or other feed. In short, whether you buy it or not, it's coming into existence. The meat you don't buy ends up in the trash.
2) If you've ever worked for a supermarket, ask the meat department how much meat they throw out. The employees go through the store every morning and toss anything that isn't selling or looks "bad". I don't have exact figures, but that's a huge amount of meat. This point ties in directly with point 1). Yes, perhaps the store doesn't profit if you don't buy it, but the meat still exists, and it is now in the trash.
3) Have you ever taken a look at the birth clock? 9,000+ people per hour are born, which far exceeds the death rate. (This is worldwide.) How many of them do you think will actually be vegans? The sheer numbers of omnivores make my personal contribution to abstain matter less and less every single hour.
4) Monocrop culture--whether it's soy that feeds you (or livestock), carrots, apples--whatever--destroys the earth. Agriculture is the problem. In places where crops are now used to be forests and balanced ecosystems. People moved in, clear cut the land, killed or displaced all of the animals, and now are growing one crop. The topsoil is destroyed, so they spray fossil fuels (non-vegan, re: "fossil") on them.

Think about a veggie burger. Clear cut some land to grow the soy and wheat (see point 4). Grow it using fossil fuel machines that spread pollution (not to mention all of the harm made in producing those machines). Harvest, package it, ship it, sell it. All steps involve toxifying the water and air.

Taking these into account--especially points 1 and 2--it really seems like my personal choice to not eat animals is akin to spitting into a forest fire.

In my view, the problem is not factory farming, damaging the environment via agriculture, etc. It's civilization. The ENTIRE system is the problem. Humans moving into an area, building cities, destroying eco systems...

This is why I admire the ALF and ELF so much. They make real change. You and I can not eat meat and hold signs all day, but until somebody gets in there and grabs big companies by the balls will it actually make a difference.

Will not eating cows make more of a difference than burning down slaughterhouses?

Will not eating fish make more of a difference than disabling trawlers?

Will not eating dairy make more of a difference than destroying factory farms and freeing the chickens?

Destroy the institutions, destroy the factories, remove the threats--this is the only way to help the animals. Being vegan is trying to work within a broken system.

I know; this is the real world. I believe my personal contribution is one of the most effective: I didn't breed. I would never bring a child into this planet, and if you watch National Geographic's The Human Footprint, you'll understand why.

I think the abstinence angle is great to try to make people feel good, but it brings about no real change. Actual, radical action changes things.

Part 2:

I have some questions for you.

1) Do you use paper? Do you read papers, send greeting cards, use wrapping paper, read magazines, work in an office...?

Think about the old growth trees that the timber industry clear cut to get paper, or to plant tree farms to harvest it. Do you know what a tree is? It's a little ecosystem with many animals, plants, etc. on, in, and around it. Trees and plants are literally the sustainers of life on earth right behind water and the sun.

I ask you--what are you doing to stop the murder of the trees and all things associated with them?

This goes double for all the wood in your life--furniture, houses, decks, etc.

2) Do you use plastic? Styrofoam? Do you drive a car? What about metals?

Extracting fossil fuels from the earth does so much damage that it's hard to fathom. And that's before BP murders part of the Gulf of Mexico.

Blowing up mountains for your soda cans and aluminum foil, or the cell phones that you upgrade and throw out, or the TV you watch, or the computer that you're on now...

Those things all do TREMENDOUS damage to the earth, yet you are not abstaining from them, nor are you alerting people about the incredible destructiveness of the corporations that make them. For details on this, please see here:
[This forum won't let me post this link.]

3) Do you have any idea how catastrophically one human hurts the world? Do you have children? Why do you not rally against them?

Those three points are just the tip of the iceberg, and every step in all of them involves displacing, exploiting, and murdering humans and animals. All of it. Every scintilla of civilization.

What are you doing to stop it?

Not eating animals is not the answer. Indigenous peoples ate animals, and were easily the most efficient people in history with the smallest carbon footprint.

Vegans have too narrow a focus. You need to broaden your perspective and realize that the entire system in place right now is rotten to the core. Factory farming, vivisection, etc. are all symptoms of this problem. By simply abstaining from animals, you may as well try to kick water uphill.

The thing most vegans fail to realize (see my point on indigenous people) is that we are mammals. We consume. Use toilet paper instead of leaves? Heat your house? Drive your car? Of course. Life today is not possible without these things. Our responsibility is to protect the landbase and the environment from which we take what we need. All of our diets--omni, veg, or vegan--are all unsustainable as they stand. They all murder and torture animals. As vegans, we may be doing less harm, but we still have oceans of blood on our hands.

I ask one more time, as I've yet to get a satisfactory answer: what are you going to do about it? What's happening today can only be described as ecocide. If it doesn't stop soon, there won't be any animals left not to eat.

I am looking for some satisfactory answers from veteran vegans but have yet to receive them.

Thank you.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby VBryan » Oct 17, 2011 4:03 am

By outlining all that, you essentially provide the answers with the statements.
You certainly do outline a lot.
It comes down to what will prompt change to the things that you outlined. The possibilities are gradual awareness (as helped by the occasional blog post), collective strong action groups to help hurry along awareness and real change, outright loss or near loss of resource, species and environment creating awareness, death, suffering and migration of hundreds of millions of people in practically every country on Earth. These are the things that will prompt change and allow the possibility for people/governing bodies to move in the right/better directions. As you outlined, that direction would tend to be populations catered to by the local environment with natural systems such as outlined with permaculture and the like. Quite frankly this means a lot of areas where us rabid consumers currently live in will not be suitable and they will change one way or another in the course of time. This will be achieved by tragic/massive loss of life in the end, however the Earth will not care one way or the other! It will carry on as it always has until such time as it is engulfed by the sun and then the life on Earth switch will be turned off.
In the mean time, if you do the right thing as best as practical for yourself, by your standards then at least some change may be driven by the less tragic of the possible driving forces.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby dragonfly » Oct 26, 2011 7:53 pm

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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby dragonfly » Oct 27, 2011 5:55 pm

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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby dragonfly » Oct 27, 2011 8:29 pm

ahimsa paramo dharma ( अहिंसा परमो धर्मः)

A sage, seated beside the Ganges, notices a scorpion that has fallen into the water. He reaches down and rescues it, only to be stung. Some time later he looks down and sees the scorpion thrashing about in the water again. Once more he reaches down to rescue it, and once more he is stung. A bystander, observing all this, exclaims, “Holy one, why do you keep doing that? Don’t you see that the wretched creature will only sting you in return?” “Of course,” the sage replied. “It is the dharma of a scorpion to sting. But it is the dharma of a human being to save.”

Ahimsa (अहिंसा), loosely translated, means abstinence from violence either by thought, word, or deed. Non-injury requires a harmless mind, mouth, and hand. In a positive sense, it implies compassion and cosmic love. It is the development of a mental attitude in which hatred is replaced by love. The scriptures define ahimsa as the true sacrifice, forgiveness, power, and strength. At its core, ahimsa is based on the intentions of a person whose focus is to not harm anyone.

Ahimsa is a Sanskrit word derived from the root hims, meaning to strike. Himsa means injury or harm. Literally translated, a-himsa means the opposite of himsa or non-injury or non-violence.

The scriptures extol the virtues of Ahimsa and consider it an essential tenet of and guide for personal behavior. However, violence for the purpose of defending Dharma is equally essential and this violence is also considered to be ahimsa.

source : http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajitchouhan/4460478148/

human beings, id est man the animal, is not an obligate carnivore. it's that simple.

“Were we slaves to tradition, Rosa Parks would still be riding in the back of the bus.”
- Gary Francione

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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Dacite » Oct 30, 2011 6:48 pm

Neither the earth nor animals need help. They need to be let alone without harming, torturing and poisoning.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Sergio » Nov 1, 2011 8:02 pm

I'll answer all your points:
1) Not all the world is USA, some governments don't make subsidies to meat industry.
2) If the story doesn't profit - they will anyway try to cut the stock with which they don't profit, otherwise they'll be replaced by other better competitor.
3) Most European countries, where they consume most of the meat (and other resources) have almost no population growth or negative growth.
4) By being vegan you drastically reduce mono-crop cultures rosed to feed the cattle.

Veganism can't reduce suffering and pollution to zero, but it is much better than current meat industry.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Kramer » Nov 11, 2011 11:25 am

Yeah they don't need help they need to be left alone that's it.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby BillyQ » Nov 13, 2011 10:59 pm

The original meaning of "vegan" was primarily about compassion towards non-humans. There are too many issues to address in this topic, but one main one is that most vegans are probably also active in other areas of their lives apart from their dietary choices, being involved in social and environmental causes. One can only be responsible for one's own choices/actions and a vegan diet does produce a smaller carbon foot print. Yes, over population is a number one priority. But if every one stopped killing animals, I am convinced they would also find it a lot more repugnant to kill each other, as well.

Off topic: Dragonfly, I have to take issue with the misguided statement "However, violence for the purpose of defending Dharma is equally essential and ..." This is not Dharma; "violence" is not part of it! I'm sure Gary Francione would find it quite disturbing to find one of his quotations and name following a statement like this, not to mention any other Buddhist.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby jackiejay » Nov 18, 2011 7:38 pm

Im new to this forum and reading youre post makes so much sense but yet its a little heartbreaking also,Ive switched over in april of this year and I am so on fire for saveing those animals that live such horrilbles lives to put food on our tables,And now feeling that what littlebit of not being a part of it and spreading the word to fellow freinds and family really is small compared to what you posted.Such small steps to a very LARGE problem,But I for one wont go back I cant I care so much and dont want to be part of it,I keep praying and learning and talking to others shareing what Im learning,It so feels like lil tiny baby steps but maybe one day with all of us takeing these babysteps together it will start to change I mean we have helped some their are peaple getting the videos out showing what going on peaple are haveing to answer for the cruelty they do to some of the animals peaple are starting to get angry and fight back with these big companys,.So as long as I have hope and compassion Ill keep takeing these baby steps.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Chekedaki » Nov 19, 2011 3:31 pm

PART 1
Well Chris. The thing is simple. Consuming meat is a lot worst to the environment than consuming vegetables. We have technologies to have plantations on a vertical style, wich would save up a lot of space. Is not that profitable to those profit-addicted as**s, that's why is not happening right now. For 1 kilo (2pounds) of meat we waste 5000lt of water while for 1kilo of veggies 25. Not to mention how much fossils do we use for livestock!!! There is no way right now to get food on the table without poluting something. The point is to create the less possible polution.
You say >75% of something goes to meat and milk, if we vegans were dominating the market this 75% would be spent on veggies. If we keep on fighting little step by little step with the people around us we might someday get to this point.

PART 2

Whatever I can recycle, I recycle. Whatever I have I use until is not usable anymore. I don't care if it looks old and dirty and bad. If it does its job is good. I don't buy things of no use, just for decor or whatever. I don't buy because it's cool. I don't dry my hands after washing them (I mean WTF? It's plain water). Whatever I can borrow or lend to someone I do so we won't have to buy twice. Magazines and papers are useless when I'm aware of the internet :/ This goes for books too (I'm a crazy bookworm and whenever I buy books the are second hand ALWAYS.

Dude please! You need to understand that there are things you can do, and if all humans did these things we could create a living with minimum waste and polution. Even if it is not possible right now with all this profit-addiction, people that have this attitude of taking care of the environment and animals are making a HUGE difference on the planet.

Take this for example: Not all people save kids by adopting them, thus there are millions of kids saved by this little percentage that adopts instead of having their own.

In the end what I want to say is that even the smallest thing you and I do to protect our planet as a whole is making a difference and we should never let ignorant and stupid people to tell us that we do nothing 'cause we are so little in a sea of careless people. WE DO SO MUCH!

Note: I can't wait for Alliens to burn all human kind leaving the planet at peace. But until they do we need to try our best :)
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Dacite » Nov 20, 2011 1:00 pm

Life on this planet is always about most good and least harm!
If everybody would follow this, we would live on the paradise on earth.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby mrsdee » Dec 21, 2011 5:24 pm

My main reason for wanting to go vegan (I am trying to make the transition now, I am still learning) is that I will not be contributing to the mistreat of innocent animals. I realize the meat industry will probably always thrive, but at least I know I am not causing harm to an animal just because they "taste good". All the other benefits, health, eco, etc, are just a part of the package for me.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby nwsailorgirl » Dec 23, 2011 4:56 am

My question to the initial question in this thread is why is ChrisVaughn a vegan? If it is an exercise in futility why bother? I know I'm a vegan--was a vegetarian since the age of 3 until 5 years ago when I became vegan--and why I'm vegan and that's the part that is important to me. My parents were not vegetarians but were very supportive of my choice...I was eating a drumstick and my friend told me it was a chicken's leg and that was the end of my meat eating. I remember going in to grocery stores and not being able to walk by the meat counters or even look--it seemed like a giant obscenity to me. I couldn't believe all the people I saw walking by and it was OK for them. I can't do anything about anyone else but me and I can't eat meat or animal products because I know what they are and how they get here and I don't want to be part of it. :flower:
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby dragonfly » Dec 27, 2011 10:33 pm

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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby dragonfly » Dec 30, 2011 12:53 am

gee whiz. up is down, left is right, inside is outside, backwards is fowards, and right is wrong. this leads me to wonder -where this is going.

but the drunken strawmen, the absentee logic, careless instrusions, misconstructions and constant sideshows to non-sequitur-land are a dead give-away. you do make one good point even, and that is that out and out greed coupled with the industrial revolution has destroyed the planet.

yes if all else fails, blame the vegans.
Last edited by dragonfly on Jul 27, 2012 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby JessB » Jul 24, 2012 6:10 pm

"Destroy the institutions, destroy the factories, remove the threats--this is the only way to help the animals."

Sign me up! :salute:
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Cupcake1208 » Nov 28, 2012 6:54 pm

Will not eating cows make more of a difference than burning down slaughterhouses?

Will not eating fish make more of a difference than disabling trawlers?

Will not eating dairy make more of a difference than destroying factory farms and freeing the chickens?

Destroy the institutions, destroy the factories, remove the threats--this is the only way to help the animals. Being vegan is trying to work within a broken system.


I hope for their sake that whatever prison they go to has vegan meals.

You can burn down a slaughterhouse but these companies control so much of the world's wealth it won't make much difference to them. It's a HUGE reason why the economy is so bad- these companies are hoarding all the money. They'll just build a new one.

So technically, maybe nothing we can do will change the WORLD. But if you don't PAY these companies for their products, and you try to find ways to donate to groups that help animals so you can write the donations off on your taxes and the money won't go to meat and dairy subsidies, then you'll at least be making a difference to yourself. That's the most any of us can do.
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Re: Vegans/Vegetarians Don't Help Animals Or The Planet

Postby Cupcake1208 » Nov 28, 2012 7:02 pm

Though I think my response is futile, as this poster simply just WANTS to be miserable and make others miserable. By definition: TROLLING.
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