Vegan Forum

A few things.

@Dragonfly while you may not agree with Adam, your posts are actually rather a waste of time reading. You name call in a, frankly, pathetic attempt at showing off your *cough* broad vocabulary. You present, quite literally, no logical argument to your case or even against Adam's and you are extremely disrespectful. I'm new here, and thoroughly interested in vegetarianism and, to a far lesser extent veganism, but if you're representative of this group I'm not interested. Maybe if you actually tried to argue your point rationally, without resorting to pathetic name-calling, using sources to back up your points and actually writing an argument rather than just linking random, rather horrific, videos, rather than just calling Adam names over and over again I, and others, might be prepared to listen to you a little more.

Next:

slola1 wrote:Vegans simply try their best to reduce the amount of suffering onto another being.

Slola, I liked your post a lot. I agreed on a number of points, and it had a very nice tone to it, rather in contrast to Dragonfly; however I will call you out on this one point: that is, quite simply, not the definition of a vegan. I try my best to reduce the amount of suffering onto other beings, does that make me a vegan? No, of course not. I realise that you agreed with him on this but I felt that I should call you on it so as to correct anyone else who may read and/or post in this thread,

In a way though, I suppose it can be possible. The definitions technically only cover diet (Dictionary.c0m, Wikipedia and Cambridge Dictionary all only mention diet), so using products such as hair conditioner, if not consumed in the diet, actually don't make you any less of a vegan. That's my take on it. I don't see why you would be a vegan, but that's another topic for another time.

~Matt.

Essentially all the protein/protein building blocks come from plants. Carnivores just wait for all those herbivores to take it all in, build it up and then eat them.
I love your science which stipulates that if you eat meat you will become intelligent. This theory that meat consumption or any type of food consumption (almost by default it seems) changes the genetics of generations is quite a theory indeed. There is a lot of science that is being discovered that indicates that some genetic change can occur in a lifetime due to lifestyle/viruses but not anything as plainly concrete as what you are suggesting.
An experiment in which meat is fed to herbivores with a probable outcome of subsequently more intelligent generations is not likely to be real science any time soon.

Alright. I have one question. I am absolutely ADDICTED to chewing gum. Is there any gum that is completely VEGAN?

Hmmm, Adam, I said 'happy' people, not 'powerful' and I think you're probably misinterpretting Dacite's meaning when he (she?:) says 'powerful personality'. As for intelligence, personally I can say I've felt a whole lot more clear headed since cutting out meat (in fact so does everyone I've ever met who's done it). But that's not necessarily evidence against what you say about a protein rich diet because the meat we have access to these days is pretty much unrecognisable from what our hunter gatherer ancestors ate. It used to be lean and fit and healthy. Now it's pumped full of antibiotics, fat, and grown quickly in dreadful conditions. So it wouldn't be so surprising if it made you fuzzy headed...

First off the bat I'd just like to than Matt for encouraging actual argument rather than name-calling.

Yeah rob I was referring to Dacite I think who mentioned powerful personalities, because power and happiness are two very different things.

As for you feeling better, I know you aren't really using this as evidence per say but it is still very anecdotal and doesn't really count for much. Any number of things could be influencing how you feel and it's just impossible to say which is making you feel more clear headed.

You're absolutely right about our diet being different in many ways from our hunter-gatherer ancestors but that's because we are very different and the reasons we eat are very different. Eating has undeniably (At least in the west) moved beyond a matter of survival and on to a matter of pleasure so all of these fatty/greasy/modern foods are to an extent justified if only because they taste good to the majority of people. As for being "fuzzy headed" I think I know what you're getting at but intelligence goes far beyond having clear thoughts, the simple fact that humanity has prospered so much on an omnivorous diet is evidence to prove that the diet we have chosen is excellent for us.

VBryan, bio accumulation has long been an effective way to get large amounts of useful nutrients with less effort. I can for example hunt and eat a deer by chasing it for 2 hours and eat the results of its' 3 days of grazing. It's just more efficient.

As for the science that you seem to attribute to me, it's been explained as not so much a genetic change (at least not over short amounts of time) but rather a functional change. People who are well fed and not malnourished due to their choice to eat meat (I am of course referring to history not right now) were able to be more active and efficient in their lives and over lifetimes this efficiency adds up into practical advantages that no society on Earth to date has been willing to sacrifice in favor of animal welfare. As for feeding a herbivore meat, as I explained this is a long term process that occurs over a life time or multiple lifetimes.

And please don't call it 'my' science, I don't own it. I'm not even particularly well versed in it.

I can honestly say I don't care one bit if people calling themselves vegans aren't "true" vegans. The fact that they are even trying means they are doing 110% more than most people and for that I respect them. I and I'm pretty sure a lot of other "vegans" use the word to loosely define their diet meaning they avoid animal products. If you want to get technical I'm not going to kick and scream if anyone declares me "non-vegan". I follow my own personal set of guidelines that I'm sure a lot of "vegans" wouldn't be happy with anyway. For instance, I eat eggs from my local farmers market because I've seen how the chickens are raised and I feel comfortable eating the eggs. Also, I am NOT anti-hunting/fishing as I believe it is a far more natural and ethical (if done right) way of acquiring food than factory farming and keeps people in touch with their place in a natural food web.

So if anyone "vegan" or not wants to criticize me for my choices by calling me a "non-vegan" I really wouldn't be offended. I am following my ethics, my beliefs, and my personal diet that works for me. I hope I'm not wrong when I say others follow a similar path.

*side note: if anything, I see the word "vegan" as an easier way of explaining yourself to people who don't know you well enough to know your specific eating/buying habits. When someone tries to pass you the deviled eggs and then asks why you don't want any, it's a lot easier to say "sorry I'm vegan" than saying "oh sorry I don't eat meat, milk, cheese or eggs produced in a cruel or inhumane way but thanks!" The word is meant to describe a lifestyle, not define you as a person.

Sure you can call your lifestyle vegan if you want but so could I. We'd both be liars though

Oh shit, some random troll on the internet is calling me a liar, I better reconsider my morals and lifestyle!

slola1 wrote:Dragonfly, as much as he's pissing us all off, it would be extremely hypocritical of me to say that we are all equal and should have equal rights and treat everything with respect, and not treat Adam with respect. It would be hypocritical of me to demand that he respects me, if I do not respect him. I may not agree with his opinion, or the way that he is going about expressing it, but that doesn't make him any lesser than me, so I'm not going to be rude to him and then just hope that he'll be polite and go away, which we all know he isnt going to.

only a certifiable idiot would coddle this childish, dull-minded, selfish troll. there is no reason to treat adam with respect, he has the mind, morals and critical thinking skills of a confused little child.

awething wrote:I can honestly say I don't care one bit if people calling themselves vegans aren't "true" vegans. The fact that they are even trying means they are doing 110% more than most people and for that I respect them. I and I'm pretty sure a lot of other "vegans" use the word to loosely define their diet meaning they avoid animal products. If you want to get technical I'm not going to kick and scream if anyone declares me "non-vegan". I follow my own personal set of guidelines that I'm sure a lot of "vegans" wouldn't be happy with anyway. For instance, I eat eggs from my local farmers market because I've seen how the chickens are raised and I feel comfortable eating the eggs. Also, I am NOT anti-hunting/fishing as I believe it is a far more natural and ethical (if done right) way of acquiring food than factory farming and keeps people in touch with their place in a natural food web.

So if anyone "vegan" or not wants to criticize me for my choices by calling me a "non-vegan" I really wouldn't be offended. I am following my ethics, my beliefs, and my personal diet that works for me. I hope I'm not wrong when I say others follow a similar path.

*side note: if anything, I see the word "vegan" as an easier way of explaining yourself to people who don't know you well enough to know your specific eating/buying habits. When someone tries to pass you the deviled eggs and then asks why you don't want any, it's a lot easier to say "sorry I'm vegan" than saying "oh sorry I don't eat meat, milk, cheese or eggs produced in a cruel or inhumane way but thanks!" The word is meant to describe a lifestyle, not define you as a person.

you're a vegetarian, not a vegan.

dragonfly wrote:

slola1 wrote:Dragonfly, as much as he's pissing us all off, it would be extremely hypocritical of me to say that we are all equal and should have equal rights and treat everything with respect, and not treat Adam with respect. It would be hypocritical of me to demand that he respects me, if I do not respect him. I may not agree with his opinion, or the way that he is going about expressing it, but that doesn't make him any lesser than me, so I'm not going to be rude to him and then just hope that he'll be polite and go away, which we all know he isnt going to.

only a certifiable idiot would coddle this childish, dull-minded, selfish troll. there is no reason to treat adam with respect, he has the mind, morals and critical thinking skills of a confused little child.

If this is true then why do you continually fail to address my well thought out points and constantly fall back on name calling?

dragonfly, spamming videos isn't addressing any of my points at all.

ReveElectrique wrote:A vegan is someone who does their very best to eliminate as much animal suffering as possible from their lives. This starts out with eliminating meat, eggs, milk and dairy. It continues with getting rid of gelatin, rennet, leather, suede, and wool. Then it changes how you talk to people. You approach them with love and kindness and change how you say things. You realize that pet stores sell slaves not pets. Then you approach people as humans that are just animals, equal to all others. You realize we are all fallible, all can learn from each other. Every time you learn that something includes suffering you do your best to cut it out of your diet and work towards it.

Exactly that!

I'm not sure I follow your logic, Adam: your argument reduces to this: if you can't do everything in your attempt to live a life that is in alignment with your values, you might as well do nothing. By that logic we should not bother trying to buy products that are fair-trade or not produced in a sweat shop because we will inevitably end up buying something that was not produced in an ethical manner. And if we find out our neighbour is molesting their daughter, we might as well do nothing because there are thousands of other people being molested at this very moment and, ya know, we can't stop them all.

Interestingly enough, most of the items on your list are ones that may include animal products but there is a cruelty free option available. These are the products that I have personally bought a vegan version of over the last 3 years: pet food, plant food, shampoo/conditioner, wallpaper, imitation eggs, cake mixes, minerals, refined sugar, fertilizer, enzymes, vitamins, instrument strings, cosmetics, brushes, felt, gelatin, flavorings, candies and confectionary, manure, gum, candles, fabric softener, shaving cream, perfume, creams and lotions, paint, lubricants and oils.

I have also been able to avoid taking medications that include animal products, but have taken ones that were likely tested on animals when they were first introduced (which is something I have no control over). Most of the other items I have either refrained from buying or haven't had the need to buy, but if and when I need to I will choose the vegan version if it is available.

AdamD can you provide reference for each product that supposedly has animal ingredients and is used by vegans?
Because most of the products you listed have vegan versions.

AndyBa wrote:AdamD can you provide reference for each product that supposedly has animal ingredients and is used by vegans?
Because most of the products you listed have vegan versions.

I guess he can't. This is a simplified version of his logic: animals are used for food, everyone eats food and that means nobody is vegan. Just a typical meat eater who wants to argue because he has nothing else to do.

sure, theres no real way to eliminate EVERY SINGLE thing using animal products from our lives. thats just illogical and pointless. but the point is to eliminate every thing that IS possible. sure, one person being a vegan isn't going to ever stop the meat/dairy industry, but they will be saving hundreds and thousands of animals lives a year. and to those animals, it DOES matter. if there are, say, only a hundred vegans in the whole world, even then those hundreds and thousands of animals saved by one vegan will turn into a hundred times that number. and there are way more than 100 vegans in the world. so although it would be awesome if we could eliminate every single animal product from our lives and it would be amazing if the meat/dairy/egg industries were shut down, that's probably not gonna happen. at least not in a really long time. but even though animals are still being killed, the animals that we save by being vegan and doing everything possible to not use animal products, that will be millions of animals saved a year. "to the world, you may be just one person. but to one person, you may be the world." same for animals. even if only 10 animals were saved a year, it would make a difference for those 10 animals. that would be 10 less animals brutally slaughtered, 10 less animals dying so a few people can satisfy their (disgusting) desire to eat flesh, 10 less animals exploited because of us. and it MATTERS. point made

AndyBa wrote:AdamD can you provide reference for each product that supposedly has animal ingredients and is used by vegans?
Because most of the products you listed have vegan versions.

Provide me a list of products "used by vegans" as well as their ingredients and I would be happy to let you know whether or not they are actually vegan.

That is so sad that people are still using poor animals for their meaningless purposes.

Yes. that is a very humongous sad statement on the human condition, that is.

Do not feed the troll.

Reve Electrique gave an excellent answer to your post.

While it may be true that the use of some products containing animal byproducts are unavoidable (if in fact things like bandaids contain them I don't know!), vegans do not eat or wear anything from an animal.

Also know there are plenty of beauty and household products that are vegan.

I think those that strive, or do, live this kinder and more humane lifestyle should be applauded, not attacked or mocked.

A vegan is someone who does their very best to eliminate as much animal suffering as possible from their lives. This starts out with eliminating meat, eggs, milk and dairy. It continues with getting rid of gelatin, rennet, leather, suede, and wool. Then it changes how you talk to people. You approach them with love and kindness and change how you say things. You realize that pet stores sell slaves not pets. Then you approach people as humans that are just animals, equal to all others.

Cosmo811 wrote:@Dragonfly while you may not agree with Adam, your posts are actually rather a waste of time reading.

or so you say. and cosmos you appear to only be able to offer up dull non sequiturs and totally irrelevant, extremely vapid commentary. i shouldn't have to explain this to anybody. the anti-intellectualism on display here is shocking and comical.

You present... no logical argument to your case or even against Adam's and you are extremely disrespectful.

geeze.. Adam is a troll first and foremost, so he has no argument to offer. i am not being disrespectful, that is a delusional, "cornfed" and dullminded troll tactic, in and of itself. besides labels are totally useless, as far as analyzing any subject in depth goes. there are a good jumping off point, it is necessary, but childish finger pointing just ain't the same thing.

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