Vegan Forum

CoeyCoey · by **CoeyCoey** » Sep 20, 2010 10:37 pm

You should try not being a pompous jerk when writing a post in which you tell someone not to to be a pompous jerk.

aoas · by **aoas** » Sep 21, 2010 2:29 am

AndyBa wrote:Please sign our petition to the Law on banning meat.

If we do not IMMEDIATELY act within the next few years, there will be a global ecological disaster of unimaginable proportions

- According to the FAO (UN Food and Agriculture Organization) to farm livestock causes more greenhouse gas emissions than the consumption of gasoline in cars, trucks and other transportation.

- Livestock is 70% of the total agricultural area of the Earth claim, including the growing of feed used 33% of the total arable land.

- Agricultural livestock leads to deforestation to make room for new pastures, and a serious, widespread land degradation through overgrazing, compaction and erosion.

- Arable farming is a major threat to the increasingly scarce water resources of the earth. Large amounts of water are consumed to produce feed for farmed animals.

- Producing animals to consume more protein than they are. Consumed for each kilogram of animal protein that is produced, animal vegetable kilograms on average nearly 6 protein in the form of grain and forage.

- It takes about 20,000 to 40,000 liters of water to produce one kilogram of beef, and about 900 liters to produce one kilogram of wheat.

- Every day, millions of animals are being killed all over the world for the unhealthy eating meat.

- A child starves every 2-3 seconds! The 760 million tons of grain that are consumed worldwide each year from agricultural livestock, would be sufficient to cover the global food shortages to 14 times!

It is the responsibility of the government, its citizens, protect the animals, etc. and is guaranteed by a meat ban.

Please sign the petition, because without you things will not change without you they will not change fast enough.

Every vote counts! When meat you approve a law to ban, click here to sign. The petition will be handed over to the governments in Europe.

Here is the petition:
http://fleischverbot.info/petition/

Many thanks and best wishes!

The two bold bits I have issues with.

Firstly to say that eating meat in unhealthy is to disregard basic nutrition. Eating meat CAN be unhealthy. So when you say the 'unhealthy eating of meat' that comes across as saying eating any meat is unhealthy (even if that's not strictly speaking what was said) which is likely to push some people away from signing the petition unnecessarily.

More than that it seems very authoritarian to claim that if it is unhealthy, people should be banned from doing so. That shouldn't be part of your petition. Unless you want to ban the consumption of alcohol, cigarettes, and too much chocolate etc.
I don't think that's the aim of the petition although if that was intentional and you agree with it, I do apologise.

With regards to animals being abused it obviously isn't limited to the meat industry, and a law against it doesn't mean that it will stop. I don't think I need to go into more detail. I'm sorry if this comes across as splitting hairs but it is about a change in law, and you have to be VERY careful with what you say before changing a law, making a law, getting rid of a law. Phrasing is a huge part of it, because if it's not clear, it can have multiple interpretations which can be very damaging and dangerous.

Furthermore I doubt that most people signing the petition are against eating meat, but instead using animals to produce meat.

For instance if one were to find an animal that died unrelated to human interaction, I doubt many would have an issue with consuming that animal. If I were to say that I don't mind if you eat me when I die, I died (unrelated to the previous statement) and then someone ate me (and I'm an animal like the rest of you of course

) that you'd take particular issue with that in itself.

With that in mind it might have been wiser for the petition makers and signers to instead come out with a more preciously worded petition, no offence but, I can't bring myself to sign that for the above reasons. I do agree with veganism, and am a vegan, but banning the eating of meat just seems insane, and that petition calls for a piece of legislation that frankly scares me.

Note: The first part I put in bold doesn't make sense as far as I can tell :wink:

.
The second part could do with being 'and its citizens' otherwise it reads as if the citizens are the government.

CoeyCoey · by **CoeyCoey** » Sep 21, 2010 12:21 pm

Aoas,

Yes, more laws are not needed. We need more understanding, not more force.

But on the subject of tobacco and alcohol, we do tax both, and taxing meat would make a lot of sense and would be more conceivable than a ban. Actually, we wouldn't even need to tax it to make it more expensive, we could just eliminate the subsidies and the price of meat would be more than most people could afford on a regular basis.

wude · by **wude** » Sep 21, 2010 2:33 pm

aoas · by **aoas** » Sep 21, 2010 3:19 pm

CoeyCoey wrote:Aoas,

Yes, more laws are not needed. We need more understanding, not more force.

But on the subject of tobacco and alcohol, we do tax both, and taxing meat would make a lot of sense and would be more conceivable than a ban. Actually, we wouldn't even need to tax it to make it more expensive, we could just eliminate the subsidies and the price of meat would be more than most people could afford on a regular basis.

I'm not saying more laws aren't needed, but if they are using shoddy phrasing like in that petition would just lead to confusion.

I think that a meat tax would be good but, this isn't an over night thing like the petition for the law would be.
It'd have to be over the course of several years.

meign · by **meign** » Sep 23, 2010 11:49 am

Count me in :wink:

aoas · by **aoas** » Sep 23, 2010 9:06 pm

meign wrote:Count me in

Did you miss my posts by any chance?

wude · by **wude** » Sep 24, 2010 2:23 pm

wude · by **wude** » Sep 25, 2010 2:31 pm

aoas wrote:
CoeyCoey wrote:Aoas,

I think that a meat tax would be good
.

I think so too, but...

In Canada, Prime Minister Harper's constituency is in Calgary; home of the Stampede. Cabinet minister Stockwell Day operates a chicken farm in B.C. In the United States, no politician wants to step on the toes of the powerful "Corn Refiners Association" because if they did that then they would never receive enough votes to be elected in the first place. A petition favoring a "ban on meat" or even a "meat tax" will largely be ignored.

Tick Tick Tick Tick... meanwhile Monsanto is aggressively vying to monopolize the seed market and destroying the environment quicker than you can say "famine". Stopping Monsanto should be the priority. The petition "banning meat" is a pointless act of outlandish idealism.

aoas · by **aoas** » Sep 25, 2010 5:29 pm

wude wrote:
aoas wrote:
CoeyCoey wrote:Aoas,

I think that a meat tax would be good
.

I think so too, but...

In Canada, Prime Minister Harper's constituency is in Calgary; home of the Stampede. Cabinet minister Stockwell Day operates a chicken farm in B.C. In the United States, no politician wants to step on the toes of the powerful "Corn Refiners Association" because if they did that then they would never receive enough votes to be elected in the first place. A petition favoring a "ban on meat" or even a "meat tax" will largely be ignored.

Tick Tick Tick Tick... meanwhile Monsanto is aggressively vying to monopolize the seed market and destroying the environment quicker than you can say "famine". Stopping Monsanto should be the priority. The petition "banning meat" is a pointless act of outlandish idealism.

True, although if you're aiming to get rid of Monsanto you need to put something permanent up, regulation to stop that happening at all, otherwise the work will just be given on a contractual basis.

wude · by **wude** » Sep 26, 2010 7:32 pm

[quote="aoas"][quote="wude"][quote="aoas"][quote="CoeyCoey"]Aoas,

I
True, although if you're aiming to get rid of Monsanto you need to put something permanent up, regulation to stop that happening at all, otherwise the work will just be given on a contractual basis.[/quote

Something needs to happen, but there are major hurdles to overcome.

The U.S. agriculture department encourages farmers to grow as much genetically modified corn as they can; on every square inch of their land if possible. They are heavily subsidized to do so. The plan, as the agriculture department sees it, is to grow overly abundant amounts of corn to be processed for cheap feed for livestock and for food additives such as cheap sweeteners (the Coca-Cola company uses this type of sweetener).

The "Corn Refiners Association" is also a problem. They are a powerful, influential lobby group who favor these farming practices and whole-heartedly support Monsanto. They remind me of the tobacco lobbyists.

wude · by **wude** » Sep 28, 2010 2:15 pm

aoas · by **aoas** » Sep 28, 2010 7:01 pm

wude wrote:We all have a vote and we all have a little power as consumers.

They won't make it/kill it, if we don't buy it.

Therefore, I think educating the public would be a more valuable pursuit than wasting time with a petition that will, in all sincerity, go nowhere.

More than that, it's a very idiotic and authoritarian petition, which if anything fucks over the general view of vegans and veganism.

CoeyCoey · by **CoeyCoey** » Sep 29, 2010 12:36 pm

wude wrote:
you seem to be oblivious to what factory farming has done and is doing to the land, waterways and animal habitat in North America.

WHAT? I am not oblivious to it at all!!! It is a horrible, destructive practice. But grass fed beef is NOT better for the environment. It is a better way of life for the animal, but it will still eventually end up on a feed lot and still slaughtered in the same horrific way. Why not stop your promotion of grass-fed beef on a vegan forum. It makes no sense at all. And stop putting words in my mouth. You are so completely blinded by the atrocities of Monsanto that you fail to see the atrocities you are promoting.

aoas · by **aoas** » Sep 29, 2010 2:21 pm

Here's the thing, we don't need to ban the eating of meat, that's not in itself bad, we need to get rid of the slaughter of animals for meat, we need to get rid of raising animals for their products and by products, and concentrate on organic crop production. Laws should be brought in to protect animals within our society and to prohibit hunting. That's about it. I've no problem with someone acting in say self defence, if you're being attacked and kill the animal because of that, where is the issue? Most hunting animals in this country stay away from humans.

wude · by **wude** » Sep 29, 2010 2:43 pm

CoeyCoey · by **CoeyCoey** » Sep 29, 2010 9:01 pm

You really don't understand the destruction of grass-fed beef. First off, there are two to three times the number of cows than the likely number of bison. A bison will live its entire life eating grass, whereas a beef cow will eat a much larger quantity of grass because they are always in their growing years. Once they stop growing significantly, they are off to slaughter. So, the cows will eat up to twice as much food for its body weight. In addition, bison eat many plants and weeds that cows will now. Bison also don't eat down to the roots like cows which results in more soil erosion.

Most of the land that the bison roamed is being used to grow food. So, if you retake that land for the cows, ban genetically modified corn, and shut down the feedlots, then you remove food production for humans which is another reason grass-fed beef is unsustainable. People are starving in this world because of the meat eaters. There is plenty of food to feed the entire planet if people stop feeding the meat animals.

wude · by **wude** » Sep 30, 2010 2:38 pm

wude · by **wude** » Oct 2, 2010 7:03 pm

alexandermller82 · by **alexandermller82** » Feb 24, 2012 3:51 am

Livestock is 70% of the total agricultural area of the Earth claim, including the growing of feed used 33% of the total arable land.

wude · by **wude** » May 23, 2012 2:31 pm

[quote="wude"]

:flower:

wude · by **wude** » May 23, 2012 2:36 pm

wude wrote:
wude wrote:
I think that a better pursuit would be public education rather than wasting time with a petition that will surely go nowhere.

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