Vegan Forum

What about all of the people who work in the meat industry? Or the dairy industry? Or the wool, leather, etc. industry? If no one bought these things tons of families would be left homeless. People could starve. But I'm sure you don't mind a few humans losing their lives as long as a bee gets to keep it's honey or a sheep's wool isn't shorn.

What about people who build nukes, chemical weapons?

Don't be so melodramatic! As more people eat vegetables and vegetable products instead of meat, there will be more demand for vegetables, especially some of the fruits and vegetables that are not currently popular. It often takes more people to harvest a vegetable crop, whilst a couple of people can herd sheep or cattle.

Many farms over here are turning to alternative crops like hemp or linseed, or reviving traditional foodstuffs like legumes.

My experiences in the food packing and processing industry (as a student) were that it really doesn't take a lot of training to press an 'on' button on a machine, take a food product off the conveyor belt and put it in a box, or stack the aforementioned boxes. A sausage-making machine can adequately make a veggie sausage, and a worker in a factory can stack boxes of pretty much anything.

Most people preferred working in the vegetable packing factories to the meat ones. You don't have to work in a refridgerated or freezing room. You don't have to be innoculated against botchulism (for those exciting days when a chicken literally explodes on the line). You don't come home stinking of rotten meat, with blood seeping through your socks.

*shivers* too many details, BigBecka!

Kinda unrelated: I read that there is an incredible risk of injury when working in a slaughterhouse. Because the workers are always SLITTIN' THROATS with their KNIVES, and people are working so close together, and animals are kicking and thrashing and writhing in pain...must I go on?....there's a great risk of injury.

Wow! BigBecka, ChrisCrossCMP great answers
Learned some interesting things...

Regarding the industry.. currently the IT industry is the most changeable..
people have to learn new things and adapt almost each ear, and no one is trying to stop the IT progress only because there are some people that can't learn fast enough and are in danger of losing their jobs.

Yep, industry's always changing, it's tough to stay on top of technology

I saw a documentary a while ago about how the british countryside has changed over the centuries (I guess the issues apply to other countries too). Whilst people worry now about advances in technology changing farming, the landscape has been changing for thousands of years:
- the introduction of automated farm machinery over the last 100 years (many people were worried that this would leave people unemployed, and lead to working horses dying out)
- increasing use of chemical pesticides and fertilisers, and larger fields, causing hedgerows, dry stone walls, trees and meadowland to be destroyed: the EU has had to intervene
- industrialisation causing people to move to the cities prior to that
- the clearances in Scotland and Ireland (where small-scale farmers were evicted following the potato famine and sent to either workhouses, or the USA, whilst wealthy aristocracy took the land)
- the move from communal medeival open field (strip) farming to enclosed fields, and, around the same time, a shift from farming vegetables and cereals to more profitable sheep farming

There are other factors that would affect other countries: social changes in Africa, the invasion of white people into the Americas (forcing indigenous people onto reserves or poor land), the abolition of slavery in the US, collectivisation in the USSR. Not to mention environmental changes causing famine or insect infestation in areas that were not previously susceptible.

I guess a vegetarian ( and organic?) society would therefore signify a return to traditional farming methods

Crisscross, have you seen the film "Kpax?" I don't have any experience of slaughterhouses, but Kpax is a vegetarian, and there is a pretty vivid description of beef slaughter in the film

Indeed, society today is like a horse that is galloping on a path that leads to precipice.

Kpax? hm... what is it about?

Should have written K-Pax - sorry - it's a film with Kevin Spacey & Jeff Bridges, about an individual called Prot who claims to be from the planet K-Pax. Prot is committed to a mental institution where he is treated as delusional, but his doctor struggles to diagnose him with an actual mental illness. I won't spoil the many twists in the film, but I found it thought provoking (an alien's interpretation of human behaviour and society), and really enjoyed it.

http://www.k-pax.com/

BigBecka wrote:Should have written K-Pax - sorry - it's a film with Kevin Spacey & Jeff Bridges, about an individual called Prot who claims to be from the planet K-Pax. Prot is committed to a mental institution where he is treated as delusional, but his doctor struggles to diagnose him with an actual mental illness. I won't spoil the many twists in the film, but I found it thought provoking (an alien's interpretation of human behaviour and society), and really enjoyed it.

http://www.k-pax.com/

Both the movie and the book were most facinating and compelling. There is also a sequel book, which I'd read, too. Very moving, both, and at turns, full of humor, too.

Hey, if we're changing the meat industry, why not change every industry to fit my set of morals.

By the same logic you would have to screw over millions of workers world wide, sure it might only be in the short term but tell that to them when they can't pay for their power.

To illustrate my point I will list SOME of the uses of the common cow.
From the top!
Brain: Anti-aging cream, Medicines
Hooves/Horns: Adhesives, plastics, pet food, plant food, photo film, shampoo and conditioner, lamination, wallpaper, plywood
Blood: Posta, imitation eggs, cake mixes, dyes and inks, adhesives, minerals, medicines, lab research materials
Bones: Refined sugar, charcoal, fertilizer, glass
Internal organs: Instrumental strings, tennis racquet string, hormones, enzymes, vitamins and other medical materials
Milk: Adhesives, plastics, cosmetics, medicines
Hair: air filters, brushes, felt, insulation, plaster, textiles
Skin: Gelatin, flavorings, sheetrock, wallpaper, adhesives, medicines, candies and confectionary
Manure: fertilizer, nitrogen, phosphorous
Fat: Chewing gum, candles, detergents, fabric softener, deoderant, shaving cream, perfume, petfood, cosmetics, creams and lotions, crayons, paint, oils and lubraicants, biodiesel, plastics, waterproofing agents, cement, chalk, explosives, fireworks, matches, fertilizer, antifreeze, insulation, linoleum, rubber, textiles, medicines

Jesus my arm is sore.
So unless you have no problem screwing over anyone that works with any of those I think we shouldn't let vegan-ism into industry too much.

"What about all of the people who work in the meat industry? Or the dairy industry? Or the wool, leather, etc. industry? If no one bought these things tons of families would be left homeless. People could starve. But I'm sure you don't mind a few humans losing their lives as long as a bee gets to keep it's honey or a sheep's wool isn't shorn."

Really? People are not smart enough to get a different low-skilled job? I think you underestimate them. You are basically saying that any illegitimate business should be kept in business just so that people don't have to find a different job. I have been in the situation where my industry wasn't as profitable as it once had been, so I got the education to enter a different industry. It's really very very easy.

I think you are misinterpreting what he said to further your own argument.

That guy is talking in practical terms, within the realm of his own theoretical argument of course. In the transitional stage between meat based industry and vegetable based industry people would lose jobs. You have no right to further an ideology that results in the loss of jobs that are, by societies and relativistic moralities standards quite morally acceptable.

What about people who do NOT work in meat industry? Why should they pay taxes and support the industry which wastes food? Are people doing nothing useful and getting tax money more important than those who work hard and pay taxes?

Yes - those people should stop working in the meat industry.
Yes we should stop the wool industry.
Yes we should stop the leather industry.
People are already homeless, people are already starving.
I do mind people and animals alike losing their lives.
Bees should keep their honey and sheep should only exist in the wild.
There should be a lot more WILD and people should eat and work in something else.
Thats my reply to your earnest statement.

A large number of people are dependent on smuggling, thievery, begging, drug pushing, gun-running and terrorism. Do we buy their products to help them?
said Maneka Gandhi, Minister of the Environment (89-91), returned to Parliament in 1998 as the Minister of Welfare and was appointed as chairwoman of the Committee for the Purpose of Control and Supervision of Experiments on Animals.

Vegan, holistic and healthy industries also require workforce.

Dacite wrote:A large number of people are dependent on smuggling, thievery, begging, drug pushing, gun-running and terrorism. Do we buy their products to help them?
said Maneka Gandhi, Minister of the Environment (89-91), returned to Parliament in 1998 as the Minister of Welfare and was appointed as chairwoman of the Committee for the Purpose of Control and Supervision of Experiments on Animals.

Vegan, holistic and healthy industries also require workforce.

Right off the bat: thieves, beggars and terrorists are not trying to sell a product so I don't know why they are in that statement except to add shock value. Comparing smugglers, drug pushers and gun runners to the meat industry is absolutely absurd. The aforementioned illegal trades directly impact the wellbeing of fellow humans. The meat industry does not. If you can't draw a distinction between humans and animals then you have a lot of thinking to do.

AdamD wrote:The aforementioned illegal trades directly impact the wellbeing of fellow humans. The meat industry does not.

Well, who pays subsidy money to keep this resource wasting industry alive? Of course, people who pay taxes. You seem not to have read my post. So, what about people who do not work in meat industry? Why do they have to pay money not only to support people working in the meat industry, but also to buy resources which get wasted? I live in Lithuania and situation here is unstable. Many people complain about taxes and how expensive everything is. It's true that meat industry isn't responsible for all of this, but we can't deny the fact that it influences economy in a bad way by wasting resources. Yet, hardly anyone cares about this and some people even consider vegetarianism/veganism to be a mental disorder. Do they know what they want? I guess not.

CrystalMV wrote:

AdamD wrote:The aforementioned illegal trades directly impact the wellbeing of fellow humans. The meat industry does not.

Well, who pays subsidy money to keep this resource wasting industry alive? Of course, people who pay taxes. You seem not to have read my post. So, what about people who do not work in meat industry? Why do they have to pay money not only to support people working in the meat industry, but also to buy resources which get wasted? I live in Lithuania and situation here is unstable. Many people complain about taxes and how expensive everything is. It's true that meat industry isn't responsible for all of this, but we can't deny the fact that it influences economy in a bad way by wasting resources. Yet, hardly anyone cares about this and some people even consider vegetarianism/veganism to be a mental disorder. Do they know what they want? I guess not.

Actually the subsidies payed to the meat industry are easily offset by the taxes payed by workers in the meat industry. It sounds odd but that's economy for you

People complain about taxes everywhere and they always have and they always will. I'm sorry to hear about Lithuania but I think the meat industry is the least of your problems over there. Heck, chances are the taces on the wages of the meat workers are actually pulling you out of your troubles.

You're wrong. Meat industry workers don't pay exceptionally high taxes. They pay as much of them as people working in other jobs do. There's no way for them to make up for everything that was wasted. Also, just because meat industry isn't supported in Lithuania as much as in USA, that doesn't mean it has no negative effects on economy. And "people will complain about problems anyway" isn't a good reason not to try to solve any problems at all.

I never said they paid exceptionally high taxes, please don't try and put words in my mouth. Workers and companies involved in the meat industry pay generally the same taxes that any other industry does. You mention "everything that is wasted" but as I see it the meat industry is thriving in a world where it makes a product that is in heavy demand. Almost every industry takes some government subsidy, but the government wouldn't pay those subsidies if it didn't benefit the state at the end through the means of taxes and tariffs. You would need some rather compelling evidence to prove that the meat inudstry is actually a drain on the economy and I have yet to see any provided.

Also, at no point did I said "people will complain about problems anyway" so please refrain from trying to directly quote me as saying that. What you did is called strawmanning and is an argumentative no-no. I never once said that people having always complained about tax is "a good reason not to try and solve any problems at all", you seem to be trying to put a lot of words in my mouth.

hahaha you have a point. That tax really sucks, people are not complaining because they don't have any choice at all people need s to work hard just for the sake of the family so they doens't care about that at all.