Vegan Forum

clearwood wrote:I'm not arrogant... but I do feel morally superior to eaters of dead meat!

That is fact and reality that people who do not eat sentient beings are morally superior because in their brain there is functioning such qualities as empathy, compassion and common sense.

The justification of your claim that " That is fact and reality that people who do not eat sentient beings are morally superior because in their brain there is functioning such qualities as empathy, compassion and common sense." is flawed in the context because.

A: Normal people do not eat sentient beings, we eat non-sentient animals.

B: Assuming that you just chucked sentient in there for funzies, normal people also have the qualities of empathy, compassion and common sense. They simply have it in a different way than you do.

Average go omnivores are very empathetic and compassionate people, and although I know this is a generalization seeing as omnivores make up the huge majority of the human race, it is more truthful than your claim that because we eat meat we do not have empathy or compassion.

As for common sense, as I see it there is an available, socially acceptable and nutritious source of food available in the form of animal meat so it seems like common sense for me to eat it. Especially considering that the last few thousands of humans ate it as well and they seemed to do ok getting us to where we are today. If it worked for them why shouldn't it work for me? It's just plain common sense

some yes. some no. but for those that do come off that way, they have a good reason to!!!

Dacite wrote:

clearwood wrote:I'm not arrogant... but I do feel morally superior to eaters of dead meat!

That is fact and reality that people who do not eat sentient beings are morally superior because in their brain there is functioning such qualities as empathy, compassion and common sense.

I AGREE!!!!!!!

Your argument here dictates that eating creatures who can feel and experience the world around them means that a person lacks the qualities of empathy, compassion and common sense. This is an enormous generalisation against your fellow human beings and only serves to illustrate the extent that vegetarians and vegans can be arrogant to.

There are always going to be arrogant people, regardless of what group they belong to. So of course there will be arrogant vegans who preach to thier friends, and arrogant meat eaters who join vegan forums in order to start arguments and tell others how superior their viewpoint is. It is interesting that we would call vegans elitist because they challenge the elitist worldview that human beings are superior to such an extent that we should be free to use animals for any purpose we desire, regardless of whether that use provides a needed benefit for us. I wouldn't say that most meat eaters lack compassion or empathy though; many of them are not aware of the unnecessary suffering that goes into their consumption habits, and if they are aware they are simply protecting their own ego and/or their circle of compassion does not extend to non-human animals. If they are not compassionate to animals then I do view them differently and feel that our personalities are not compatable, but that is not because I'm a vegan; I've been that way my whole life. I don't want to be friends with someone who thinks it funny or okay to abuse an animal.

And the only reason omnis would not like being around me is because of the knowledge that I'm a vegan - this has happened to me often, where people judge me as soon as they hear I'm a vegan, and go on the offense wanting to pick a fight with me. I don't inconvenience anyone - I bring my own food to other peoples houses when necessary, and my questions for a waiter in a restaurant are limited to 'is there any cheese in the bruschetta', or something like that. I never ask that the chef make me a special meal, and have never known another vegan to do that either.

It's possible.

I honestly feel that Vegetarianism or Veganism are more evolved states of awareness that most human beings are incapable of.

Abiding solely on your educated awareness and compassion for other living things, knowledge of where animal-products are doing to this earth, etc - it shows a lot of thought and dedication to making the right decisions and I honestly feel that those are excellent traits that more people in the world should have.

Eating meat in MOST cases is simply for pleasure, because of a sense of entitlement and very rarely for health reasons(That chemical-laden chunk of frankenstein mystery meat is really giving your body everything you need? cmon). But I understand some people do have genuine medical needs for animal products as well.

No i don't think that vegetarians are arrogant just because they are vegetarians but i have seen some people who show arrogance because they are non vegetarians. I don't think there is any reason of boasting on the fact that we are vegetarians or non vegetarians,But We should always praise those who are converting themselves into vegetarians.Thanks

dalaithellama wrote:

bojster wrote:Meat eaters suck. And so do (though considerably less) vegetarians. Go vegan!

People like you piss me off. If it weren't for that sort of attitude among vegetarians/vegans, omnivores probably wouldn't be so judgemental about us. The judgements obviously go both ways, and it isn't completely on the omnivores' shoulders.

Just a thought. Live and let live.

So true.

It's also strange when vegans/vegetarians feel the need to "one up" and look down on each other. For instance when a vegan gets all superior about what they don't eat to someone who they know is a vegetarian that eats dairy but not eggs, or something. It's all pathetic no matter who does it to whom.
I guess it just goes to show we can't all be vegan/vegetarian and enlightened as well. The reason these people have for feeling superior to one another is unsubstantiated, their egos are so large they live in a world of delusion. Oh well
Who decides what is right? Who decides what is wrong? We do, for ourselves. Ultimately we will never know if our decision is correct particularly for others. There is no reward for getting it right either. So what's the point in competing or having something to prove? Probably insecurity.

No matter what we eat, we all have it.

Apocalyptica wrote:There are always going to be arrogant people, regardless of what group they belong to. So of course there will be arrogant vegans who preach to thier friends, and arrogant meat eaters who join vegan forums in order to start arguments and tell others how superior their viewpoint is.

My argument, although not explicily stated, was that there is correlation and perhaps some causation between whether or not someone is a vegan and whether or not someone is arrogant. Saying that there are arrogant people everwhere is a cop out, you're right of course, but I thought it was obvious that I was saying that vegans are more arrogant as a group than the norm.

As for your thinly guised barb about "meat eaters" (which by the way is an inadequate way of describing a regular humans diet) having the gall to join your forum and get this!: Disagree with you on some matters; there is nothing arrogant about disagreeing with someone if you justify your position properly. What is arrogant is presuming that someone starting an argument with you is somehow taboo.

Apocalyptica wrote: It is interesting that we would call vegans elitist because they challenge the elitist worldview that human beings are superior to such an extent that we should be free to use animals for any purpose we desire, regardless of whether that use provides a needed benefit for us.

The current worldview is not that we are "free to use animals for any purpose we desire", that's why there is such a thing as animal rights. On top of that, although the current worldview pertaining to non human animals may be elitist, but at least it is justified.

Apocalyptica wrote: I wouldn't say that most meat eaters lack compassion or empathy though; many of them are not aware of the unnecessary suffering that goes into their consumption habits,

So if ignorance on the issue means you keep your status as a compassionate being, would you consider educating them a cruel thing to do because essentially you are condemning them to either subscribe to a different way of life or to forever be labelled incompassionate.

Apocalyptica wrote: and if they are aware they are simply protecting their own ego and/or their circle of compassion does not extend to non-human animals.

How is taking advantage of an efficient, societally acceptable, naturally eaten and damned tasty form of food protecting ones ego? For normal people animals still recieve some compassion but we are realistic in saying that animals shouldn't recieve the same amount of compassion that human animals do and as a result of this gobbling them up is ok.

Apocalyptica wrote: If they are not compassionate to animals then I do view them differently and feel that our personalities are not compatable, but that is not because I'm a vegan; I've been that way my whole life. I don't want to be friends with someone who thinks it funny or okay to abuse an animal.

So, because of your lifestyle choice you are intentionally excluding yourself from accepting other people for who they are? Right.
I don't think the vast majority of normal eaters "think it funny or okay to abuse and animal", killing and eating an animal is not animal abuse (when done properly under industry standards), and I doubt anyone but psychos think animals being eaten is "funny".

Apocalyptica wrote:And the only reason omnis would not like being around me is because of the knowledge that I'm a vegan - this has happened to me often, where people judge me as soon as they hear I'm a vegan, and go on the offense wanting to pick a fight with me.

Although this is purely anecdotal so holds little weight in this discussion, it doesn't seem to match up with what you said above. Earlier you "view them differently and feel that our personalities are not compatable" referring to normal eaters, perhaps your outright bias against them is influencing the situation a bit here.

Apocalyptica wrote: I don't inconvenience anyone - I bring my own food to other peoples houses when necessary,

Bringing your own food is considered rude in most Western countries as the implication is that you don't feel that the hosts food is satisfactory. Regardless of whether or not you mean it that way (and you do, you think their food is morally wrong) it does give off that feeling, that sounds like inconvinience to me.

Apocalyptica wrote: and my questions for a waiter in a restaurant are limited to 'is there any cheese in the bruschetta', or something like that. I never ask that the chef make me a special meal, and have never known another vegan to do that either.

What if there is cheese in the bruschetta? Do you ask the chef to make a meal different than usual specially for you or do you sit there and take up a seat that another proper paying customer could be in? More inconvinience.

WingedAndToothless wrote:It's possible.

I honestly feel that Vegetarianism or Veganism are more evolved states of awareness that most human beings are incapable of.

I find this statement quite funny because it is meat allowed us to literally evolve to where we are now. As for whether or not veganism is a more enlightened state of mind, I disagree and the fact taht you would claim this only further reinstates my fears that vegans are generally more arrogant than non vegans.

WingedAndToothless wrote:Abiding solely on your educated awareness and compassion for other living things, knowledge of where animal-products are doing to this earth, etc - it shows a lot of thought and dedication to making the right decisions and I honestly feel that those are excellent traits that more people in the world should have.

Not exploiting a natural resource which provides food in an age where food is in desperate need does not show thought or descision making capacity.

WingedAndToothless wrote:Eating meat in MOST cases is simply for pleasure, because of a sense of entitlement and very rarely for health reasons(That chemical-laden chunk of frankenstein mystery meat is really giving your body everything you need? cmon). But I understand some people do have genuine medical needs for animal products as well.

Yes, eating food is often for pleasure. Who are you to take away that pleasure from people because you value animals more than a normal person? As for a "sense of entitlement", why do you feel you are entitled to eat plant life? Sure it's not as sentient as animal life but on a similar not, animal life is not as sentient as human life. Probably because plants aren't as cute and cuddly right?

Hello


MY observation just about the vegetarians who look down on others because they eat meat. I am speaking of vegetarians who consider the lifestyle an elitist society. I am speaking of vegetarians who have no tact when dealing with individuals who choose to eat meat.

A lot of times the arrogance is part of a convert's zeal. I know I certainly had it when I was "converted" over 20 years ago.

That zeal of others was important to help me become vegetarian, and then vegan, and maybe my own subsequent zeal also helped to convert others.

but I am also sure that the same zeal put off many people as well. Over time, my zeal wore off, but not my commitment, which I will explain unashamedly when asked, without trying to be hectoring.

As an aside, the vegetarian Brahmins of India do actually see themselves as an elite, because they have eschewed one part of the cycle of birth and death, i.e. eating flesh. And there is a certain Californian, wealthy vegetarian subculture that is also very elitist. So the two perspectives are by no means incompatible.

I think we should accept that we think our choices to be superior, because we would not stick with them otherwise, would we. But as you rightly point out, the arrogance is the problem.

Some meat eaters are arrogant. Some vegans are arrogant too. I've had both criticize me (the carnivore was when I became vegan, the vegan was when I was still vegetarian). It happens.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, I couldn't care less what my family & friends eat. It's none of my business. I won't preach or lecture.

The only vegans I have met that were arrogant were straight-edge, and somewhat young. I don't doubt there are plenty of arrogant vegans, however, because I have met many arrogant omnivores. I doubt the trait is less abundant in herbivores.

SmeepRocket wrote:The only vegans I have met that were arrogant were straight-edge, and somewhat young. I don't doubt there are plenty of arrogant vegans, however, because I have met many arrogant omnivores. I doubt the trait is less abundant in herbivores.

Agreed. For anyone to pontificate about why an individual should eat a certain way is damned annoying, not to mention, just boring.

But I admit to finding it highly irritating when most people ask me' where do you get your protein?' even in this day and age. As well, I resent it when people say that being vegan makes it hard on others who invite you to meals at their homes. How hard can it be for them to serve food which is vegan, such as salad, potatoes, or even the humble peanut butter and jelly sandwich? It's NOT rocket science. However, I WILL eat dairy if people serve it to me. It's no big deal. BUT I REFUSE TO EAT ANY KIND OF FLESH. If that means I go hungry, oh well...

snog wrote: However, I WILL eat dairy if people serve it to me. It's no big deal. BUT I REFUSE TO EAT ANY KIND OF FLESH. If that means I go hungry, oh well...

Hehe, that's known as Freegan. Eating animal products when other people are paying, specifically.

^But the primary reason I eat dairy at others' homes is because I want to be less of a 'pain' to my hosts. And, truth be told, I will eat some dairy on occasion at home, too. Oprah coined a term, 'veganist', to denote a person, who while eating a primarily plant based diet, will consume dairy and eggs on occasion. That's me.

Sorry that I'm not a purist.* rolls eyes*

Lol, as for being freegan, I've been down that road many times. I've rescued perfectly good food from the trash on countless occasions, especially when I cleaned offices. A friend and I also found a bag of bagels in a doorway to an apt block in NYC. And, sadly, many victims of famine in the 3rd world rifle through garbage dumps to be able to eat.

To return to the original thrust of this thread: arrogance and intolerance is arrogance and intolerance regardless of its source. My dictum: each to their own. If a carnivore wants to lean more about vegetarianism and veganism, they're served best if one approaches them in a non judgmental manner.

'clearwood wrote:
I'm not arrogant... but I do feel morally superior to eaters of dead meat!'

It's the above attitude that alienates many people, including myself. I mean, where the fuck do you get off? Talk about being sanctimonious!

Er, I was being serious, I was hardly mocking you. That is called Freegan.

However, there's a little bit of veal in every glass of dairy. The dairy industry is just as bad as the meat industry, so if you are doing it for ethical reasons, your logic is faulty.

I really can't stand Oprah for those kinds of things.

If you eat dairy, you are not just not a purist, you are not a vegan. That's perfectly okay. But you confuse others by calling yourself a vegan, the way that people who eat chicken and say they are vegetarian confuse others. It does damage to the cause because it is misinformation, though your diet may be more morally acceptable than a meat eater.

Honestly, if your hosts can't handle your dietary choices, which are done for strong ethical reasons, then just don't eat any food. I went to a friend's for New Years, and a vegan friend of mine that is vegan for health reasons ate the meat there, but I just didn't eat. Actually, I can't drink, so I didn't drink any alcohol. Sometimes, you just have to abstain. I don't see why that is so hard. If you've been starving for three days because you are poor, and someone offers you a hamburger, by all means, eat it. It's really a matter of circumstance, and each situation is different.

Oh, and bagels are vegan. Thank goodness for that.

Anyone can be arrogant. However, there are those vegetarians and vegans that do walk around with an "attitude", and can be quite obnoxious when speaking to those that aren't. Although I'm vegetarian, and make sure a large proportion of my meals are vegan, I have been on the other end of these obnoxious people, and it gets my back up. They aren't willing to hear anyone else's "side", nor acknowledge anyone else's opinion. Imagine how well that works out when speaking to meat eaters. How many will listen to them once they get an earful of attitude. But like I said at the beginning of this post, anyone can be arrogant.

According to me A vegan diet is one that consists of only plant-derived foods, as vegans do not use or consume any animals or animal products, including flesh, eggs, and milk. Like non-vegans, vegans eat soups, stews, stir-fries, salads, and casseroles. They may consume a wide variety of ethnic foods, as well as vegan versions of traditional favorites such as pizza, tacos, burritos, lasagna, burgers, barbeques, loaves, chili, pancakes, waffles, sandwiches, and desserts.

disney in orlando

Agreed about the faulty logic. And, whilst eating primarily vegan meals and snax, I'm not a vegan, I agree.

It's akin to people thinking vegetarians eat fish and chicken. Ive given up telling folks that a 'real' vegetarian doesn't eat flesh.


Alas, I do have a hard time being totally vegan all the time.

But, I'm not gonna beat myself up over it. And I will enjoy that football icecream cake that friends and I will enjoy in a couple weeks! Though we could care less about football.

In a perfect world, I'd be happy to be vegan all the time. I enjoy the soy icecream ive had. But many niche market products cost the earth and my being on an income of less than 10,000 usd yearly, those items are a luxury. (I also love the meat analogues I eat, such as tofu pups, etc.)
Would that all food would be sourced from plants, I'd be happy.

Yeah, freegan-ing is good. Ive had many a great food find! One time, years ago, at a regional fair, some one threw out a platter of tempura. I recede it from atop the pile of food in a trash can. Saved myself a lot of $$, as those can be pricy!

I meant 'rescued', not receded. My iPad will intuit what it thinks I want to write, and if I'm not careful, I miss mistakes. I can't correct the bottom paragraph as I can't scroll down that far.

Oh, yes, and I also wish death to any critter such as mice that get into my apt. ( I hadn't had any in many years, but recently had seen one in my livingroom. suffice it to say, i dont go in there anymore and kind friends moved my love seat and tv table into my bedroom. Ive stuffed under the livingroom door, which ive closed and locked, with rags).I hate and fear them greatly! They reproduce big time, too. So, I have no 'soft' feelings for these horrid things. They cause much damage and have been known to carry disease. Also, the knots they leave everywhere is so unhealthy. I'd read a ton of comments on a blog about mouse infestations and one college kid reported that a mouse got into his bed and bit him. How chilling!!! He had to get a tetanus shot and a course of antibiotics. Mice can also cause fires, too, as they'll nibble electric wiring inside walls.

petcrusader wrote:Anyone can be arrogant. However, there are those vegetarians and vegans that do walk around with an "attitude", and can be quite obnoxious when speaking to those that aren't. Although I'm vegetarian, and make sure a large proportion of my meals are vegan, I have been on the other end of these obnoxious people, and it gets my back up. They aren't willing to hear anyone else's "side", nor acknowledge anyone else's opinion. Imagine how well that works out when speaking to meat eaters. How many will listen to them once they get an earful of attitude. But like I said at the beginning of this post, anyone can be arrogant.

Well put! People who behave like this I call 'vegan facists'!

snog wrote:Oh, yes, and I also wish death to any critter such as mice that get into my apt. ( I hadn't had any in many years, but recently had seen one in my livingroom. suffice it to say, i dont go in there anymore and kind friends moved my love seat and tv table into my bedroom. Ive stuffed under the livingroom door, which ive closed and locked, with rags).I hate and fear them greatly! They reproduce big time, too. So, I have no 'soft' feelings for these horrid things. They cause much damage and have been known to carry disease. Also, the knots they leave everywhere is so unhealthy. I'd read a ton of comments on a blog about mouse infestations and one college kid reported that a mouse got into his bed and bit him. How chilling!!! He had to get a tetanus shot and a course of antibiotics. Mice can also cause fires, too, as they'll nibble electric wiring inside walls.

geeze. that's plain vanilla subservient speciesist rhetoric and obtuse doublethink. it is never all-right to kill an innocent non-human animal.

^ eh? Talk about rhetoric: your response was chock full of the same. All that sloganeering gets old and screams 'lunatic fringe' to boot. Man, you come off as a major whack job. Speaking like that to people will hardly convince them to become vegan.
To your point about 'speciesism: yes, it does make me a hypocrite to be sure, but most of us are thus from time to time. I'm sorry if I don't want my apt overrun with mice. You're welcome to them. Feel free to come and capture them, honey, and take them home.

'I really can't stand Oprah for those kinds of things'.

I dunno, I think she makes abundant sence, really. I think it's a great term for a person who eats a primarily vegan diet, but who does make some exceptions. We all do what we can. Some people can go 'whole hog' ( pun not intended, lol!!) and others perhaps are '80%-ers, like myself. Making any effort at all helps. Sure beats eating the whole hog( pun INTENDED).

snog wrote:^ eh? Talk about rhetoric: your response was chock full of the same. All that sloganeering gets old and screams 'lunatic fringe' to boot. Man, you come off as a major whack job. Speaking like that to people will hardly convince them to become vegan.
To your point about 'speciesism: yes, it does make me a hypocrite to be sure, but most of us are thus from time to time. I'm sorry if I don't want my apt overrun with mice. You're welcome to them. Feel free to come and capture them, honey, and take them home.

and snog you come off as a "sour grapesian" bootlick, it doesn't surprise me you are only able to mount an incredibly shallow and insensible ad hominem strawmen attack to make your rather naive point. i can has some realworld critical thinking skillz, your DUMBYist "canned" rhetoric is truly an eyesore. as far as convincing people to go vegan, i'll take my chances with the truth.

who let the dog out who who

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cognitive+dissonance